I don't like Phil Jackson...Don't like Kobe Bryant either. But what they did tonight makes them two of the greatest to every have coached/played professional basketball.
Rumors are swirling that Jackson does little more than JoePa on the PSU sidelines these days...and Kobe calls the shots. Regardless, he's been in the right place, right time, more than anyone in history.
And Kobe- no one can deny how great of a player he really is. He might be more skilled than Jordan as a complete player...and now he's taken a step to be mentioned even more regularly in the same breath as MJ. Shaq might have carried the Lakers, at least as Kobe matured, but Pau Gasol is no Shaq...and he made everyone better on that team this season.
It's also interesting that this Lakers team might be regarded as one of the greatest Laker teams of all time...that's pretty impressive just to be able to have the discussion...
I still don't like the NBA, but always like to see history made. It was made tonight in Orlando.
27 comments:
"Rumors are swirling that Jackson does little more than JoePa on the PSU sidelines these days"
And lets see, how'd coach Tiller do when he was so absolutely hands on? Maybe the best way to lead is to actually delegate and not be a control freak on the sideline, just ask Charlie Weis how that's working for him. Get over throwing cheap shots at Joe Pa. And NO. Jackson isn't successful because he was at the "right place, right time".
The only thing at the right place, right time is Purdue in the Big Ten. Otherwise no one would care about the Boilermakers.
"He might be more skilled than Jordan as a complete player."
nope.
JoePa built what PSU is...but he does nothing now. No headset, no real communication to assistants, just yelling of unintelligible "words", running through the end zone to use the bathroom, and marching up and down the side line a la Ron Zook- and let's be honest, that's impressive for a man his age, seriously.
Paterno WAS a great coach...now he's a figure head. What I wrote was deserved.
By the way, Joe Tiller isn't Purdue's coach anymore...see?
Matty, Jordan didn't have the jump shot Kobe had until his vertical started shrinking. Kobe's always been a great shooter. They both are amazing defenders, great finishers and are really good at pushing off (easy).
Kobe, until this season, didn't make his team mates any better than they were on their own, Jordan seemed to always do a pretty great job finding the open man (Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc, etc.).
I think the debate can be commenced, before last night, it really couldn't happen.
Although it is tough to compare Kobe and MJ due to the rule changes, I have to disagree that Kobe is a better shooter. He is a career 46% shooter. Jordan? 50%. And that includes his two crusty years with the Wizards. Imagine Jordan playing when he was 32 in this era where you get a foul called when a defender breathes on you. By the way, Jordan averaged 30 points a game and shot 49.5% from the field when he was 32.
Did you read this from a recent Sports Guy article? "The site www.82games.com just posted a study of game-winning shots from the last five-plus seasons (regular seasons and playoffs since the 2003-04 season) that revealed Kobe was shooting 14-for-56 (25 percent) with one assist and five turnovers, and made 12 of 15 free throws. So let's say that was 70 possessions total, including Sunday night. ... He only had one assist in nearly six years???"
I know that Phil Jackson won 10 Titles and while that is VERY impressive, I view him as more of an ego manager more than a coach.
He does a great job keeping his ultra talented teams focused, but I have a hard time saying that a coach with MJ/Pippen, Kobe/Shaq, Kobe/Odom/Gasol teams is the greatest coach of all time.
Nonetheless, it takes a special coach to get all that talent to actually produce championships. So, hats off to Jackson, but he's just not the best in my book.
I'm not sure how this Laker team even enters discussion as the greatest Laker team of all time. It might have the greatest individual Laker of all-time on it, but I'd easily take the Lakers of the 80's over this Lakers team.
Ryan -- I don't think anyone said this was the greatest Laker team of all time.... or maybe my ADD caused me to miss it.
Good arguments, all... and anonymous, I might argue that nearly all pro sports coaches need to be ego managers first.
I cannot stand Phil and I think Kobe's a reprehensible human being. But they accomplished something significant and Phil, lucky or not, has pushed a lot of correct buttons to win ten titles. three, four, five... MAYBE you could argue it was just the players (and I did) but after a while, he deserves some cred.
To his credit, he downplayed it during an interview and immediately said he's been "lucky" to coach some of the best players ever. Nice to see that deference.
You know, Red Auerbach coached 9 Hall of Famers. Sounds like he was the lucky coach.
...and Red had fewer games to win to get a title. Very different game back then.
Joe Paternoes no bobby bowden........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp0H62QrWSs
What's Bowden have to do with this?
J-- Second to last paragraph:
"It's also interesting that this Lakers team might be regarded as one of the greatest Laker teams of all time...that's pretty impressive just to be able to have the discussion..."
I concur that Kobe is a terrible human being. Look for the uncensored police transcript following his sexual assault allegations.
As a Bulls fan I admit I recoil a bit when people compare anyone to Jordan. I admit I'm biased and I don't care. But beyond the bias, based in fact, I don't think you can say *yet* that Kobe is as good or better than Jordan.
1.) Jordan excelled at the collegiate level before he went on to the pro's, so his accomplishments were done in a shorter period of time.
2.) MJ earned a four year degree too. Kobe didn't. There is a social good about higher education that makes college educated people better for society - better adjusted, better perspective of the world around them, better at contributing beyond a specific thing. See Kobe in courtroom vs. MJ and his contributions outside basketball.
3.) Both played under Phil and lead/coached from the floor under Phil, but MJ influenced Phil's coaching approach and arguably made him better. In a way, MJ made Phil a better coach, from which Kobe benefitted.. . Phil is a great coach (more about that later).
4.) How many rings does MJ have vs. Kobe? 6 for MJ? Hmmn. Looks like there's some work to be done.
Phil is a whole other topic. Phil is just the most successful professional coach of all time. Period. You just cannot argue with success in his field. He turns groups of great players into championship TEAMS. Not everyone can do that, and not everyone can do that consistently, but he has.
I honestly don't understand why some people don't like Phil Jackson. He does tremendous things with his talent, and I've never even heard that he is "dirty" in any any way, not like a certain San Antonio coach. If you don't like him because your favorite team loses to him, that seems kind of petty.
What does having a college degree have to do with this?
You might have some credence to some of your points, but the degree has nothing to do with the measure of him as a basketball player.
I hate to defend Kobe, but he's only 30. To suggest Jordan had accomplished more by this point in his career is more than just a little biased.
As is the statement implying that Jordan made Phil better but Kobe didn't. I don't know about either, honestly, but it seems hard to make that argument.
"If you don't like him because your favorite team loses to him, that seems kind of petty."
I think that is the only reason anybody would dislike the man. Of course, that was the only reason I hated the Patriots until Spygate, then I had a legitimate reason to hate them.
Ryan: "I think that is the only reason anybody would dislike the man. Of course, that was the only reason I hated the Patriots until Spygate, then I had a legitimate reason to hate them."
+1 - True that. I feel the same way about Belicheck
J Money: "As is the statement implying that Jordan made Phil better but Kobe didn't. I don't know about either, honestly, but it seems hard to make that argument."
Phil's words, not mine. I can't point to the Chicago Tribune stories or Charlie Rose interviews (I don't care enough to look and I'm not sure they are indexed) but he made the statement on at least one occasion.
Boilerdowd: "What does having a college degree have to do with this?"
I thought I made the arguement clear with this: "There is a social good about higher education that makes college educated people better for society - better adjusted, better perspective of the world around them, better at contributing beyond a specific thing. See Kobe in courtroom vs. MJ and his contributions outside basketball."
Contrary to Charles Barkley's opinion, Kobe, MJ and others are role models. So maybe by being college educated means he's just a better human being. I'd be fine with revising my argument to that effect.
I know why people don't like Belichick and Jackson- they're condescending and smug. There are winning coaches that aren't that way...I can think of a couple off of the top of my head.
Acacia- couldn't one argue that Kobe's time out of the world would give him a much-better view of the world around him than three years in North Carolina?
Regardless, I still don't think the talk of the degree matters.
Boilerdowd,
I guess Phil has never struck me as condescending and smug. I respect your view that they both come across that way to you, but they've never come across that way to me. Belicheck's cheating is a betrayal of sport ethics, so I don't like him, but Phil Jackson has always reminded me of a philosophy professor more than anything else. *shrug*
Now to really take a bender: Speaking of philosophy, I don't think three years in the working world gives you a better view of the world than three years of university. Higher education forces you to confront your own prejudices and think through a lot of things that you've never experienced and might never experience. It grows you as an intellect and a functioning member of society. Working confines your mind to that which is immediate and narrows your focus to that which your circumstances (financial, working, life) allow you to see. I would have never thought to have read "Meno" or absorb its lessons if I was not introduced to it in a Purdue introduction to philosophy class. Considering the negatives associated with professional sports there are definitely issues with the practice of virtue. Perhaps "Meno" and "Republic" (both by Plato) should be required reading. :-)
Sorry for taking this thread so far off the beaten track. LOL!
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/10296-whos-smug-in-sports-tiger-woods-and-phil-jackson-but-commentators-top-list
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-sportsmagic-lakers-bianchi-03060309jun03,0,1435018.column
http://fourhorsementattoo.com/2009/06/15/phil-jackson-makes-political-statement-after-historic-win/
Boilerdowd,
This is hilarious! After reading the first two links I like Phil even more.
The first talking head is just sad - he want's to fight an old man because he's smart, well read, spiritual, and has been successful. I guess the author feels inadequate.
The second link is from an Orlando writer, so I can see him wanting to put down the opposing coach. That said, anyone who's spent any time in both towns (Chicago and Orlando) can vouch for the comparison Phil uses "If you want a plastic city like Orlando that has warm weather and golf courses, that's fine. But if you want a city that has meat and grist to it and has a culture, Chicago has it.". I especially like the quote: "Wisdom is an overmatch for strength.". Well put.
The third link is just weird. He's won 10 championships. Roman numeral X. There's no politics there. Sheesh, somebody get a grip. Getting Louis Farrakhan on the line to comment is just bizarre.
I'm out of here. Let me know when you guys get back to Purdue Sports!
I also don't understand the hatred of Phil Jackson. He doesn't cheat and isn't an asshole. He's just a great coach and great delegator. He can manage egos effectively without micromanaging. Thus, during a game he takes a very hands off approach often sitting with legs crossed on the bench barely reacting to anything. That doesn't mean he is smug or arrogant.
Acacia -- What Purdue sports would you like us to write about at the moment?
Matt -- I don't think we're espousing "hatred," necessarily... just a general dislike. We also stated from the beginning that you have to respect what he's done.
The Voice Of Reason....
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090616&sportCat=nba
HAH! Bill Simmons... Reason... You make me chuckle.
He's spot on when he's talking about the NBA. Any other topic, not so.
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