Tuesday, October 09, 2012

Can Purdue Compete? (Guest Post)

Every now and again, someone makes a commet to us and we think it deserves more of a read than just within the comments section...Today, we got one of those.

If you visit here often, you might know 'zlionsfan' as he's a regular commenter.  He was thoughtful in his response to J's post, so I thought it warranted a post of its own...so here it is.

Keep in mind, the post isn't exactly in step with what J and I think...but I thought this might cause further discussion.  What are your thoughts?


Right now, there's obviously a gap between where Purdue football is right now (a barely-middle-of-the-pack program that struggles to get to bowls) and where we want it to be (perennial contenders). It's becoming very hard to make the case that Hope is still the right guy for the job. Burke isn't likely to make any changes, though, and in any event, he won't find good coaches willing to work for Hope's salary. With Daniels coming on as president, can he get Burke to put more emphasis on growing the football program, or will he let MJB continue to nickel-and-dime his way to bottom-tier bowls?

I don't think Daniels has a choice. The money to build an elite football program simply isn't there, and it isn't ever going to be, not unless he is able to find someone like T. Boone Pickens. (You know, the guy who donated $235 million to Oklahoma State's athletic program.)


Even with a season of sellouts, Purdue would be more than a quarter of a million tickets behind the top of the conference, and something like 100K-200K behind the next tier of stadiums. That's no less than $3M to $6M in revenue that they have no way to collect; of course when you get beyond the cheap seats, it turns out to be a lot more than that. 


In 2010, Purdue's football revenue was a little under $18.4M, dead last in the Big Ten. (Check the Revenues and Expenses tab for details.) You can probably see where this is going: Indiana's was about $24.2M. Iowa, in the middle of the conference, was $44.5M. Penn State and Michigan topped $70M. 


Basically, the conference elites make $60M-$70M ... but that's the result of decades of planning, support, and success. Beaver Stadium's capacity exceeded 80,000 in 1970; Ohio Stadium in 1960; Michigan Stadium in 1928. They were both lucky and wise, Michigan in particular: it was a lot cheaper to expand stadiums in the '50s and '60s than it is today. (Of course, renovations of a 100,000-seat stadium are expensive, too.) And it doesn't make sense to proceed with Phase II and III of the Ross-Ade expansion when Purdue doesn't even sell out now. 


I think it's reasonable to not be satisfied with catching and dominating the middle of the pack, but even for that, money is going to have to come from somewhere. Higher attendance will make up a little of the difference, but that still translates to IU- or Northwestern-level revenue. High-end JPC members can kick in some money. Where's the rest going to come from? 


In 2010, the cheapest adult ticket to the highest-demand home game cost $46. This was about 25% cheaper than the mean Big Ten price for similar games (right about $60). Burke has been working on department-wide measures to build and maintain a significant student presence, but that just deals with attendance, not revenue. How can a school with a low-capacity stadium and cheap tickets significantly build its revenue?


Well, it's hard. Revenue is suffering because of a lack of success, relative importance (basketball's obviously first here, and with good reason), and other factors. Raising attendance by dropping ticket prices is tricky: you don't want to lose revenue just to try to fill the seats. Raising prices isn't going to work unless you can point to a specific plan, and really, would we believe Burke if he laid one out? Hiring a marquee coach isn't going to happen without the revenue, and even a second-tier coach will think twice about coming here unless there's a plan in place to boost attendance ... which generally is going to require increased success. (And in the Big Ten, revenue is really about attendance: success itself doesn't help that much, because you're going to get a share of the bowl pool no matter what you put into it.)


Burke deserves criticism for not trying harder to build the program with the money he has available (Purdue had about $7M in "profit" from the 2010-11 season; no telling what it was earmarked for, though). Extending Hope because he'll work for next to nothing was a bad move. The root of the problem is deeper than that, and as much as it pains me to admit, it's likely beyond the ability of Burke and Daniels to change. 


However, they can at least make a start. Big-name coaches are not going to take a major pay cut to coach at a school with adequate facilities and a frustrated fan base, but there are up-and-coming coaching candidates available every year; all it takes is one of them who'll be willing to prove himself here. Find someone who can build a decent program at Purdue ... but don't make a long-term commitment to someone just because he's cheap. Give the next guy a few years, and if he doesn't work out, keep moving on until one does. Get the program back to where it was in Tiller's heyday, and maybe then, we'll start to see opportunities to close the revenue gap that is currently making it a challenge to keep up with Indiana and Northwestern, never mind Michigan and Ohio State.

50 comments:

zlionsfan said...

Thanks to boilerdowd, J, and the rest of the BS crew for sharing their front-page space with me.

I asked boilerdowd to use a photo of a packed Michigan Stadium to illustrate their built-in advantage: they fill it partly because of tradition and partly because they're good. All those things reinforce each other, and have for pretty much the last 50 years. That, and the similar setups at Ohio State, Nebraska, and Penn State, are what help to separate them from the rest of the Big Ten pack.

BoilerBloodline said...

Great post. I agree with a lot that you mention here. I believe Morgan Burke failed miserably to capitalize on the on the Tiller hayday years. He failed in almost every aspect to utilize the Brees & Orton years to put Purdue Football on the radars of thousands of young athletes. Much like Terbush, Burke is good at managing, but he is not good at creating, innovating, and marketing Purdue Football (and basketball) as a place that winners choose to earn their degrees and participate in athletics.

zlionsfan said...

Thanks! Good assessment of Burke ... perhaps, like Hope, he was simply promoted into a job too big for him. The things he's doing would probably work just fine at Ball State or Central Michigan, schools where building on a tight budget is an absolute necessity. Stumbling upon a Dan LeFevour or a Brady Hoke is just an accident, and once they're gone, you go back to the way things were.

They also work fine for the non-revenue sports, where marketing really has to be low-level and low-cost (Facebook, YouTube, Twitter). But you can't run a revenue sport in a high-profile conference that way and expect success ... especially not by hiring cheap coaches and hoping they magically become awesome coaches, even when their history says otherwise.

KevinB said...

I find the numbers on the amount of revenue a little decieving. I doubt that Northwestern makes more money on football than Purdue does, even IU making more money than Purdue doesn't seem to make sense. I see signs all over the place that have tickets on sale for $5 to IU football games.
I agree with the basis of your post, but I think the revenue numbers are skewed due to where the university decides to put the money from the Big Ten network. That was my take, let me know if I am incorrect.

zlionsfan said...

That's a good point, and something to consider about all of these numbers: standardized reporting through the DoE just means we have numbers in the same rows and columns, not that they all represent the same thing for each program.

I went back and looked at two rows in particular for each school, non-allocated revenue and total revenue, and those numbers do seem to line up with what you suspect. Looking at total revenue, Purdue reported just over $66M in 2010-11, tenth in the Big Ten, ahead of Illinois ($57.5M) and Northwestern ($56.2M). IU was at $70.2M, middle-of-the-pack was about $82M, and the Big Three had between $116M and $132M in revenue.

So the gap between Purdue and the haves is about the same, although the multiplier is much different (2x rather than 5x). There isn't nearly as much of a gap between the Boilers and the bottom half of the conference, and there are definitely some accounting things going on. Purdue reported $32.6M in non-allocated revenue, fourth-highest in the conference. Illinois had just $5.8M and OSU had $41.6M. (Tattoo joke here.)

According to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, BTN revenues amounted to just $7.2M last year and about $24.6M total from the conference (except Nebraska, of course). So they're clearly not all reporting conference income the same way, which makes it hard to nail down where the differences are. There's obviously other sources of revenue that aren't reported the same way: Purdue puts them in one place to make football look smaller (??), while other schools put that revenue in other places.

Kapper said...

I realize the two revenue sports (being Men's Basketball and Football) are the ones that get the most attention, but if you look across all sports (the AD's job) and take in the improvements that have been made during Burke's tenure, it is pretty impressive.

Swimming now has a world-class pool, which played no small role in having a Boilermaker win two medals at the olympics this past summer.

The baseball team has a brand new field to showcase an up and coming program.

The women's soccer team, both tennis teams and both golf teams all now have facilities that are top of the big ten (and in the golf course's case, top of the country).

The basketball facilities are state of the art, he ponied up the bucks to keep the coach everyone wanted, and Painter has delivered a strong recruiting class this year with more to follow. They also brought back the opening practice open to public for free in order to generate more excitement and an opportunity to recruit.

The football facilities also have gotten large upgrades throughout his tenure (something that was a priority as the last AD had let those facilities suffer for years).

Hope was a risk that, thus far (and probably never will) has not worked out. Purdue is behind the 8-ball somewhat, as they are forced to be a self-sustaining athletics department. Yes, the BTN money is nice, but with title IX and having to spread that across 16 other sports that lose money, it becomes much more difficult.

So back to the original question, at this point, Purdue will need to get lucky on coaches, because the money simply isn't there until winning happens again.

So, the moral of the story is, if winning means that much to readers, donate to the JPC and go to football games.

CaryNW87 said...

Someone has to be willing to take the risk first. Do fans take the leap and dump money into a program that is mediocre at best, or does Purdue borrow money to pay a higher profile coach? Both are risky.

As a season ticket holder, I would be willing to pay more per game ticket IF I knew that we at least have a chance to compete.

zlionsfan said...

You left out volleyball: improvements to the Mackey complex that gave the volleyball team a better environment (new locker room, new film room). Holloway is already an advantage for the Boilers, in large part thanks to the Block Party. (The three matches they played in Mackey were completely different: Mackey is designed for 14,000 noisy people, and one tenth of that simply doesn't sound the same.) The changes that freed up more space for the team have made their facilities really nice, and it doesn't hurt to have a quality coach and a solid team.

I don't think Title IX is that much of a factor. Obviously it's not optional, and as KevinB pointed out, we can't say for sure that women's sports cost Purdue $X and men's sports bring in $Y, but the department still took in more money than they spent last season, even with the football program running at about 3/4 capacity.

Every little bit helps, though. Obviously none of us are going to make the kind of donation that turns a program around, but small donations do make small differences, and some of those old people in the good seats at Mackey and Ross-Ade started with the minimum JPC contributions, I'll bet. (I suspect that people on this board would not be the type to sit on their hands the whole game, though, even at 60 or 70.) And we can at least hold down the fort until football is in a position to make changes that could lead to significantly greater revenue.

Boilergal said...

I guess I just don't agree with looking at the situation this way. How much money is Purdue losing by not being in the position it was from say 1997-2006? I think those are the important numbers to look at. We weren't world beaters of the college football world, but we were a legitimate threat to challenge for the Big Ten multiple years, plus compete in BCS-level bowls. We had expectations of NYD bowls every year. There was buzz around the program and there was actual hope year in and out that Purdue would have a good season. Instead of capitalizing on that, Tiller lost interest and rode into the sunset while still "coaching" at Purdue. Then, he got Burke to hire his man to replace him. Hope is not up to this job, he just isn't. But, we can definitely afford to hire and pay a coach with much more ability, knowledge and potential than what we are paying Hope now. That money would come back with a return to the level of play for the 1st decade of the Tiller years (ticket sales, JPC fees, some would up their donation). Right now, having a 10-month old, it is just not worth giving up Saturdays to watch the product Purdue is putting on the field. I do have season bball tickets, but I am currently not giving at the level that I was to JPC because I don't need to and don't see that Burke is a good steward of that money (we have 2nd row tix for bball, thanks to sitting with my aunt and uncle that are way up in the JPC). Throwing in the towel, just because we don't have the stadium capacity of other schools, seems pretty pathetic to me. I would rather find an AD that has balls to fight to ressurect the program to where it was and use that momentum to propel the program further. We were there not long ago... if Burke actually gave a dang about being anything more than mediocre, we could be there again. He just doesn't have it, though. Until we get rid of Burke, nothing will change.

zlionsfan said...

CaryNW87, you're right, ticket prices can't be a source for significant revenue increase right now. The onus has to be on the AD and coach to show that the team is worth a bigger investment.

Boilergal said...

As far as the money from BTN... didn't France start siphoning some of that off? Seems particularly unfair to expect the AD to be self-sustaining while also picking its pocket.

KevinB said...

@zlionsfan
Thanks for your research. I think that makes more sense that we are still in the bottom, but that we are in the same realm as the other lower schools in the B1G.
@Kapper
Great points also. I think that when you look at Purdue sports as a whole, we are doing quite well.

zlionsfan said...

Boilergal, I don't think we're that far apart. Tiller's success (when he cared) provided the impetus for the first expansion to Ross-Ade, the one that added luxury boxes, the real future source of revenue ... had that continued, funds for continued expansion would have been available. Obviously a bigger stadium doesn't automatically mean more success, but when you are playing well, it means more revenue to feed the program and hopefully keep things going. (See Iowa and Michigan State, for example: $14M and $26M more revenue than Purdue, respectively. Some of that comes from other sports, of course (particularly MSU basketball), but larger stadiums do make a difference.)

Good catch on the use of BTN revenue, by the way. Here's one example. (I'm not bitter at all about all the new residence halls being built years after I left. Terry Courts was just fine for the two years I lived there. Just fine, I say.)
I agree that if the athletic department is self-sufficient, the university should be, too.

I also found this post by Kristi Dosh that confirms KevinB's theory:

Purdue, Iowa, Ohio State, Northwestern and Michigan’s athletic departments spoke with me about Big Ten Network revenues. Purdue, Iowa and Michigan indicated that they do not attribute it to any sport, so none of that revenue is included in football revenue. It is, however, included under non-sport specific revenue, so the overall athletic department profit numbers do not change for the Big Ten. Each school indicated that with other broadcasting revenue they attribute the money 65/35 between football and other sports (none gave a reason for why they don’t do this with Big Ten Network revenue). They also gave me the total amount each Big Ten school received from the Big Ten Network during the reporting period I have covered, which was $14,911,477.

jbrunner said...

Wow, these are really sobering statistics. I really agree with Boilergal...the investment of finding $ to pay a higher-caliber coach could pay itself off. I'm willing to see if Hope can pull this team together and improve this year's record...but this season is it. If there isn't improvement, change will need to happen.

Purdue Matt said...

Please just hire a coach that won't punt on 4th and 1 and understands the odds and math of those types of decisions. Hire a coach that would instill an identity or the offense and always be thinking one play ahead. Hire a coach that understands possession is more important than field possession. Especially at a school like Purdue you need someone that understands these concepts and can use them to tilt the odds in their favor. Look at how Dana Holgorson coaches fearlessly at WVU. The football gods favor the bold. Look at what mike leach did at TTU. These guys are known commodities now and not cheap, but there are others out there. Like te high school coach in Arkansas that never punts and wins state titles.

BoilerBloodline said...

Kapper, You are indeed correct in what you have said and I agree with you, Burke has done many great things for Purdue athletics. I guess my point has always been those sports would never get those upgrades without the revenue from the football program, yet less money is put back into sustaining the football program for the long haul. Burke got it right when he hired Tiller from Wyoming. He lacked the same foresight in hiring Danny Hope....by a very large margin.

kkeller said...

I like a lot of the comments in the thread so far but I have a problem with the idea that spending money on a coach automatically translates into success on the field. Ultimately there needs to be a good fit between the coach and the university.

This may be the defeatist attitude written about lately but I do not believe that Purdue is currently a place that high profile coaches are itching to come to. To me that means that we need to identify talented coaches at the mid-level universities and bring them in. Tiller was like that and a couple of years ago, so was Hoke and last year Sumlin. Once we find that coach I think we can all agree that it is important to reward success and keep the coach here (and since we are not a MAC school that is a reasonable expectation).

I think that there is a growing consensus that Hope is not the answer and that means sooner than later it will be time to find that up and comer (some times it takes a couple hires to get it right).

my 2 cents.

boilerbugle said...

I don't know where this fact fits in the discussion, but here it is anyway:
Purdue has the smallest number of Varsity teams in the big ten, 18. IU: 24 MI: 27 and OSU: 35 NW: 19

Does that mean Purdue does less with less? I dunno, but I've always found that little piece of trivia interesting.

zlionsfan said...

PM, I think that's a requirement for someone in this position. He's not going to have the same resources some of his competitors do, so he needs to be willing to take chances they won't. After all, it's not like poor performance will cost him his job, so he might as well be a gambler.

kkeller, I agree with you. Big-name coaches do not want to make less than $1M to try to build a team in the same division as Ohio State and Wisconsin (and Penn State, once their sanctions are done). We are currently a high-risk, low-reward job in a power conference, although if the ND series comes to an end and Burke adds another tomato can to the schedule, the risk factor may be lower: the impact of replacing ND with a weak opponent is significant for a team that gets 5-6 wins a year.

That doesn't mean it can't happen ... but I think it would require some alumni to step forward and offer to buy out Hope and subsidize another guy. That may still be necessary if Hope gets the boot. I don't know how much Burke will shell out to get rid of him.

zlionsfan said...

bb, that's one way to look at it. I don't know that it makes much of a difference, though. It isn't like volleyball nearly making the Final Four or women's golf winning an NCAA title put money in the coffers, and adding, say, men's and women's lacrosse would drain a bit from the program, but nothing on the scale of football stadium improvements.

Shadow300z said...

Thanks to you all for these great posts and good comments. There are some really interesting points on the financial situation around the Big Ten.

Everyone reading this blog wants Purdue to be a contender, the question that we have is how do we get there? I don't think there's a simple fix like hiring a new coach, new AD, lower ticket prices, etc.

Why do some of you think we could lure a top tier coach to Purdue? Money is lacking, the program needs at least a few years to build into a perennial contender, and the climate/culture just isn't there right now. At best, you're going to have to hire an up and comer from a smaller program, not unlike how Hope was hired a few years ago. With that there's always the risk that we'll be in the same situation we are now.

Personally I'd like to see the assistant coaches get the boot, and give Hope 1-2 more seasons. I can stand losing if you are throwing the entire playbook on the field with imaginative play calling on both sides of the ball and playing/coaching your heart out. I can't stand just watching Purdue roll over for a WEAK Michigan team.

boxercr said...

I appreciate the dilligence on the numbers. But, didn't we as alums and students already know this intuitively? When I was applying to Purdue in the Fall of '89, a friend of mine commented about Mich and aOSU: they are like small cities. We all have known for a long time that the traditional "powers" have more money. So, why did any of us choose to attend Purdue? For me, it provided an educational experience that was unique and challenging. This is the draw for players and coaches alike. Is Painter the highest paid? Is Coach Shondell? Was Keady? Was Tiller? At base, it is not about money. It is about finding the right fit of players and coaches who dont care about money and pampering but care about the challenge of attaining excellence in the special place that is Purdue.

CaryNW87 said...

I was curious what a talented, "up and coming" coaching staff would cost. Given the most recent examples, I chose Marshall - innovative offense, passable defense, etc.

The most recent info I could find showed the entire coaching staff costs Marshall approx. $1.5 million. Purdue currently pays approx. $2.5 million for their staff.

I guess my point is, we don't need to spend huge bucks on a huge name. We just have the wrong "up and comer." Yes, it's risky to try a different direction, but continuing in the wrong direction to avoid risk is ridiculous.

Mark said...

Your numbers are not correct. I've seen IU for example with a negative budget when it comes to football. Not sure what numbers you're pulling from...

Furthermore, I guess I do question why ticket prices need to be raised!?! That makes no business sense. There is little demand with surplus supply (empty seats). Econ101 says low prices MAKE sense!!!

Where Burke has failed is the necessary planning to BOOST revenue. By pouring money into non-revenue sports ad nauseum FIRST, he hamstrung the athletic department. That money should've been reinvested in football to pay top coaches to ensure a healthy and growing revenue stream.

Instead, we're 2nd to last in coaching salary and last in assistant salaries, iirc.

CaryNW87 said...

Mark,

These are salary numbers, not overall budget numbers.
The Marshall numbers are from their own site.
The Purdue numbers are from an ESPN article.

I agree that in the current situation, ticket prices cannot go up. What I was talking about was a "mutual investment." Purdue invests the money for a higher profile coaching staff, and we fans invest in the program at the ticket office.

pinball said...

I appreciate the authors research and due diligence as well. These numbers are valubale in may ways and definelty highlight the business side of college athletics. So as a business, I consider Burke the CEO of a multidimensional Corp. Basketball 1st, Football 2nd, Baseball 3rd etc. He has to spread around the revenue and I agree, has made many improvements to all sporting venues. Of course he could do more, Maybe he could of capitalized more on the Tiller/Brees era, But the reality is Purdue Football went from Coach Burtnett (loser) to Akers (high paid/high profile Coach Akers)(LOSER!)to low paid no profile coach Coletto (Extreme Loser!) to lo-key/lo-profile Coach Tiller (Winning!) Tiller was a Huge find from little ole Wyoming. After all the failures, Burke finally Hit (not the jackpot) but definelty Straight 7s which equaled more wins than losses several late Dec bowl games and a trip to the Rose bowl. Burke had a ridiculous challenge to find a good coach.(I still wish he hired (Spack) I think he was just trying to use the same formula as with Tiller. Small college coach/laid back, that can recruit high profile football states. Tiller(Texas) Hope(Fla). Its a crapshot...odds are the coach isnt successful. I dont think High Pay or success at another University guarantees coaching success at a new one. Ex. (Akers at Purdue) he just didnt fit here. more recent (Rodriquez) at Michigan, he didnt fit either.

To continue on the business analogy. Coach Hope is the G.M., Operations manager, Director of sales and marketing and R&D. His Asst coaches are sales and marketing reps. Selling our program to recruits. In an effort to put the very best PRODUCT on the field and sell a Successful Product to our Fans...ultimately the more success...the MORE REVENUE. Coaches need to EARN higher pay ,and they do so from success and proving they can actually COACH. Which means getting your good players to play great and your great players, playing consistently great. Just as Coach Painter has shown. He didnt get PAID until he was successful and other universities came calling for his services.

The CEO (Burke) definetly holds some accountabilty, but the BUCK STOPS with Coach Hope. I like him personally and I think he has a good recipe for recruiting speed and talent from Fla, (juts as Tiller did from Texas) but Tiller had an creative, aggressive offense that took the Big 10 by storm. Hope makes poor decision, one after the other. The team is error and penalty prone and his Asst. coaches seem inept. notably O.C. Nord and the "New" Special Teams coach. Hope has been thrown a few curves with injuries to starters, but a good coach can overcome and stay competetive...a great coach can find a way to win. I am still wishful that we can have a solid winning season. No-one on this site or at Purdue wants mediocrity. Purdue Football has a Powerful legacy with Hall of Famers, The cradle of QBs, Dozens and Dozens of Current and Former NFL players, Kick-ass campus life and pretty good academics to boot. We should Demand Success. Someone mentioned expectatuons... We should Strive for the Rose Bowl every year, and expect a Late December Bowl game yearly (not just in Down years for the conference elite or years we dont play the elite) EVERY YEAR!! Of course there with be down years and rebuilding years, but success breeds success.

As far as Daniels being any help....He could always Ride his Harley out at Halftime of the IU game with Burke riding Bitch behind him and a midget in a sidecar. (Wrestling to Follow) I would buy a $25 ticket for that.

Great job all. This Blog is on FIRE this week. Looking forward (well,maybe not) of the weeks to come.

U-P Boiler said...

I don't think I've seen any comments about the Saturday Experience at Purdue as compared to other schools.

Back in the late 60's -- pre-Purdue Bowl late 70's, for example, Purdue could always count on conference wins against Iowa and Wisconsin - they were two doormats. But Iowa and Wisconsin had healthy attendance at most home games during that period.

Ole Miss is another example - never won a SEC championship, goes to the occasional bowl, but not a terribly competitive team, yet the fans pack their stadium every game.

Some school's football games are true events. I cannot explain why (although having lived in the South for eight years, part of that is tradition there), but Purdue's attendance seems to be directly affected by the program's success.

I don't have a clear understanding as to why one program traditionally has a healthy fan base regardless of number of wins per year, while other programs' fans are fickle, but I think it is a definite factor in this whole equation.

zlionsfan said...

In the late '60s, the capacity of Camp Randall was 77,280. Here's Wisconsin's annual attendance around that period:

1965: 56,428
1966: 51,725
1967: 52,495
1968: 43,559
1969: 48,898
1970: 56,223
1971: 68,131
1972: 70,454

After a down year in 1973, attendance mostly stabilized in the low 70s until 1987, when it went through a similar cycle to what you see above. Alvarez then built the program to the following it has now.

Similarly, Kinnick Stadium capacity was 60,160 until the early '80s. Here's their annual attendance:

1965: 52,740
1966: 46,438
1967: 48,399
1968: 49,021
1969: 50,218
1970: 49,728
1971: 46,630
1972: 44,166

In '75, Iowa moved up to about 90% of capacity; around '79, they were basically at capacity, and that held true through about '98, basically when Fry was there. Iowa may be a better example of what you're describing: for most of the last 30 years, they've had solid attendance regardless of record. (Six of his teams failed to reach bowl games; the last was in his final year, and that was when attendance began to falter.)

But I think both situations are easy to explain. When there was consistent belief that the program could win, based on the success of previous seasons, people would show up, whether or not the team actually did play to expectations. Attendance didn't fall off until a) the team had multiple disappointing seasons or b) the coach who got them there was obviously in sunset mode.

Purdue attendance has actually been similar, peaking during what would have been a bowl run under Mollenkopf and the bowl runs under Young and Tiller, except that success isn't sustained for as long here, so interest wanes more quickly.

I'd suggest that the SEC difference is obvious: as you suggest, football is the main sport there. (To be fair, although I suspect you were being hyperbolic, Mississippi has won 6 SEC titles ... it's not their fault that they're known as much for Billy Cannon as for what they did themselves.) We've probably all read about the fan experience at Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, and Tennessee. (It doesn't hurt that the weather is significantly different. All other things being equal, would you rather sit outside on a November afternoon in Wisconsin or Mississippi?)

However, in Mississippi's case, there's another contributing factor. Vaught-Hemingway Stadium's capacity in the early '70s was 34,500. As late as 1997, it was 42,577 ... they didn't expand beyond 60,000 until 2002, and even then they're only at 60,580. So they maximize the experience by keeping capacity (relatively) low even when demand is high.

BoilerRick said...

When Alabama decided to upgrade from Mike Shula to Saban they sent a notice to top donors and told them what they would have to pay to get Saban. They paid. It did not cost the university anything to get Saban. Would JPC members be willing to pay more for a great coach?

zlionsfan said...

That's a good question. To clarify, we're not talking about JPC members in general - that includes more than a few of us, and I don't think it works to have some kind of "anti-Hope drive" to raise $N million from all JPC members - but rather about the comparable group, the top of the Life Champion members. (You need "only" $350K to be in that group.)

Could Burke hit up those people for, say, $10M over 5 years in addition to what the department would pay? Would he? I don't know. I don't feel like the big donors would do that anyway. I could be wrong; maybe the reason why they haven't bought out Hope's contract is because Burke doesn't do business that way. I just don't think our top donors want to foot that kind of bill.

Maybe that comes from never having had that kind of success. Let's face it, compared to Alabama (or Michigan or Ohio State), Purdue football is small potatoes. We had three good years in the '60s, but in our best season, we didn't even win the conference. One more under Jim Young, and that was really it - even the best seasons under Tiller ended with us outside the top 10. We haven't gone unbeaten in conference play since 1943. So no one, not even the old, rich donors that few of us ever see, really knows what it's like to support that kind of team ... and so the people who are in a position to make that kind of decision maybe don't know what they're missing.

I think we'll have to take smaller steps first. Even if Purdue landed a top coach, there's no guarantee that he'd have the same success here he had at other places - there are other schools doing the exact same thing in better situations - and deep-pocket alumni tend to be pretty demanding when it comes to results. (See, for example, every coach at Alabama between Bear and Saban.) I think we'd be more likely to see a middle-tier coach drawn here with some alumni assistance.

BoilerRick said...

I agree with your comments - I feel the same way. And yes at Ala it was just the very top donors that were hit up but I'm sure the whole fan base chipped in as well.

Just was curious what you thought

zlionsfan said...

I suspect it depends on the approach as well. If the AD says "hey, we're thinking about widening our search for a coach, would you be willing to help?", that's probably going to get more rank-and-file members to contribute than if he says "Look, I can't even look at MAC coaches unless you all double your contributions."

Unfortunately, thanks to the Painter debacle, we know which way this AD leans. Given that it was for basically the same situation, it would probably play out the same way. (I'd actually forgotten the Nancy Cross letter until now.) And I think that goes back to what others have pointed out, that Burke simply doesn't know how to do this stuff. If he'd done it the other way around - had Cross send out a letter saying "Hey, Coach Painter is talking with Missouri, look, no big deal, we'll definitely keep him, but do you think you could help?" - they probably would have raised more money, and they definitely wouldn't have pissed off half the JPC and a number of other Purdue fans as well.

BoilerRick said...

and of course Alabama struggled for a long time after Bear Bryant so the fan base was really ready to get to the next rung. I would really like to see Purdue reach that same conclusion but it is not easy to figure out which coach is worth the money. Just ask Mich about Rodriguez

Mommatried said...

First, I hate smart phones.

Second, some interesting thoughts here. I agree MJB has put the other programs in a better place than they were. I also think he's done a Hoosier's job managing football and basketball.

Every school has to contend with Title XII. Purdue has to put its pants on the same way as EVERY other school...to use this as an excuse is just that.

If revenue were the only impetus...Urban Meyer would not have an undefeated Utah team. TCU would never play in a Rose Bowl...and Boise State would be flat awful too. Given- none of those schools play in the conference with "powerhouse" programs. To be honest, I don't think any of those teams would give 2 shits if a team in their conference made 10 times what they did. They win ball games because they practice like champions. They work harder than everyone else. They execute. They believe they can win. Winning is an expectation....

And then there's Purdue where we're told to "MANAGE" our expectations. Again, EFF that.

When the head coach is not out coached every game, when players learn from their mistakes and quit committing the same mistakes (on and off the field)- I just am not one to BUY on Purdue's program now. I thought our defense was better than it showed- and it probably is if given a coaching staff that puts the talent in position to win...

The Michigan game look like we had just come back from Summer break- not a marquee matchup with the chance to seize B1G destiny by showing up against a team that got rolled against ND.

There are just too many damn holes to even break out the epoxy. The damn thing is half sunk. Send MJB and all his false machismo on to retirement- and get somebody with the brass to grab the proverbial bull by the balls.

Meanwhile Kevin Sumlin has led to different programs to the Top 25. And we hired away Eastern Kentucky's powerhouse coach...

zlionsfan said...

Lower revenue doesn't prevent a team from competing, but it does make it harder to build and sustain success, particularly in power conferences ... and we'll have a chance to see just how well Utah, Boise State, and TCU can do that over the next few years. (Utah's not been impressive so far: they went 4-5 last year in the Pac-12 despite missing both Oregon and Stanford, and they're 0-2 so far this season; it's not like the conference has been loaded either year.) I would not be surprised if they find success much harder to get, even in the bottom half of the power conferences (although I guess you could put the ACC up against the Big 12 or Big East, depending on what year it is).

It may also be worth noting that coaches who've moved on from those schools, with the exception of Meyer, have face-planted, although to be fair, it isn't like they got to move their players with them. Dirk Koetter had a couple of above-average years at Arizona State before getting the axe. Dan Hawkins couldn't break .500 at Colorado. Dennis Franchione had one OK year at Alabama and one at Texas A&M. There's even a question about Meyer's exit from Florida: I've read articles suggesting that one of the reasons he left was because the cupboard was empty. (Maybe the stress of trying to meet expectations in SEC country caused his health issues. I would have no problem believing that - you can learn a lot from reading EDSBS.) Maybe it's just bad luck, or maybe it's that their skills are suited to a particular environment (big fish/little pond).

Sumlin is a real problem for Burke, or should be. He's basically Purdue's Hoke: a guy with ties to the program who didn't have experience at the power-conference level, but had enough success at a smaller school (or two, in Hoke's case) to have people eyeing him. Purdue, like Michigan with Rodriguez, had a coach failing to meet expectations. (Again, to be fair, Michigan's expectations will always be higher in football.) Instead of buying out Hope and snagging Sumlin, they gave Hope an extension. Now Sumlin's winning games in the SEC and Hope is ... well, if Purdue actually sneaks into the Big Ten title game, there will be no mystery as to why it happened. (Thank you, Mark Emmert and the NCAA, unless it means Hope gets another extension he didn't deserve.)

There are only so many inexpensive, up-and-coming coaches available each season. If Burke waits long enough, maybe Daniels will start looking for an inexpensive, up-and-coming AD.

Mommatried said...

I think this next game will tell us as much about DHope and this team as any. Last year the team that suited got its ass kicked in a way NO OTHER Purdue team had. They got punched in the mouth- over and over again. If this team doesn't want to settle the score and send a message that they have not forgotten- well they will have their chance. Or they can play more DHope brand of football and seal his fate...but I personally think this game should be viewed with absolutely everything on the line- because if we are to win a championship- it is.

zlionsfan said...

totally agree. These are the times when previous Purdue teams won the games they needed to. Handing Wisconsin a second loss would mean the Badgers would be at a distinct disadvantage; they'd have to gain two games to make up the difference, and that's with Purdue playing Iowa and Wisconsin playing Michigan State.

It isn't literally playing for the right to go to Indianapolis, but it's the game that will have the most impact on the East. As you say, with last year's game fresh in the players' minds, motivation ought not to be a problem at all.

Maybe Hope should call up the Northern Iowa coach and get some tips ... the Panthers nearly won in Madison, and UNI is a pretty successful I-AA team, something Hope couldn't manage at EKU.

boilerbugle said...

Come on... Purdue has won a game it "needed to win" for years. Let's not pretend that this team is motivated by "needing a win" I don't know what motivates these guys neither does the head coach, maybe if they get to wear fancy uniforms they'll show up to play.

boilerbugle said...

*hasn't won

Hong Samnang said...

Del Bosque happy to have options
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Spain coach Vicente Del Bosque is pleased to have so many options ahead of his side’s clash against Nigeria on Sunday.
Del Bosque made several changes after Spain’s 2-1 win over Uruguay, and it made no difference to their form as they thrashed Tahiti 10-0 at the Confederations Cup.
Spain are expected to revert to the team which beat Uruguay, but Victor Valdes’ return in goals is the only change Del Bosque confirmed on Saturday.
He said having so many options was good for his squad, who need at least a draw to confirm their spot in the semi-finals.
“Well, there will be few changes with the last match, of course. For example, Victor Valdes will be the goalkeeper,” Del Bosque said.
“A part from that, the rest of the players will be more or less like in the first match, but we have a lot of alternatives and possibilities.
“In one hand that is a problem for us, but in the other hand is also an opportunity to be able to choose between that many players.”asreported byIndo Eleven.
If Spain finish top of Group B – as is expected – they will face Italy in the semi-finals and avoid a clash against hosts Brazil.
Del Bosque said he had been impressed by Brazil, particularly their attacking play.
Source : www.indo11.com

Hong Samnang said...

Kone keen on Palace switch
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Wigan forward Arouna Kone says he does not intend to play in the Championship and that a move to Crystal Palace would interest him.
Kone, 29, was Wigan’s star man last season despite their relegation from the Premier Leagu, as he scored 13 goals in 38 appearances in all competitions.
The Ivory Coast international helped Wigan to their FA Cup success, but is not keen on hanging around at the DW Stadium to experience life in the second tier.
With Wigan’s former manager Roberto Martinez having left for Everton, Kone has been linked with a switch to Goodison Park, but the Ivorian also said he was keen on a move to newly-promoted Crystal Palace.
Kone, who says he has been the subject of several enquiries, wants the offer to be right for Wigan, though.
Kone told The Sun: “You always have ambitions as a footballer, and I don’t intend to play in the English second division.asreported byIndo Eleven.
“Wigan have gone down, which is a real shame. It’s up to them to set out their stance about my situation. I aim to play for one of the best clubs in England, and I hope I will get the chance.
“I’ve had plenty of approaches. I can’t reveal the names of the clubs.
“But Crystal Palace have gone up, and from the moment a club is in the Premier League that is good for me.
Source : www.indo11.com

Hong Samnang said...

Nainggolan: Southampton are my last choice
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Cagliari midfielder Radja Nainggolan has revealed that Southampton want to sign him, but the Premier League club are his “last choice”.
The 25-year-old impressed for the Serie A outfit last season, making 34 of a possible 38 league appearances in midfield.
The Belgium international has reportedly attracted the interest of Inter and Napoli, but is not ruling out the prospect of staying at Cagliari.
Southampton have also offered him big money to lure him to England, but Nainggolan appears happy to pursue other options before deciding whether to accept the offer from Mauricio Pochettino’s side.
“I still remain focused for training, because we haven’t entered the transfer window yet, so I cannot talk much about it,” Nainggolan told asreported byIndo Eleven.
“I’m still a Cagliari player, whether I will stay or not depends on the club’s vision for the future. If Cagliari have a good plan for my career, of course I will stay.
“The situation is uncertain and everything can happen but I have to consider my future career as well.
“Honestly, Southampton gave me the biggest offer at the moment among the other clubs but I don’t play football for money. My priority is looking for a brighter future for my career and Southampton is my last choice.
“We will see later, it’s no problem for me to move to England for the sake of my career.”
Nainggolan also revealed that he nearly signed for Juventus last year, and that he would love to play for Barcelona at one stage of his career.
Source : www.indo11.com

sila cha said...


Bruce: Second bid for Hooper unlikely
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Steve Bruce has cast doubt on the likelihood of Hull City making a second bid for Celtic striker Gary Hooper.
The Humberside club are attempting to bolster their attacking options ahead of their return to the Premier League, but had an offer of around £4.5 million rejected earlier in the transfer window.
Celtic are believed to be willing to sell the Englishman, who netted 31 goals in 51 appearances last season, but only for a higher sum.
Bruce does not expect an increased bid to be lodged, however, despite seeing a move for Burnley forward Charlie Austin collapse due to a failed medical.
“We had a bid for him rejected and I can’t see there being any change in that,” he told asreported byIndo Eleven.
“We’ve got other irons in the fire and we hope that we can get one or two strikers in before the start of the season.
“It’s obvious that we struggled to score goals last season so that has got to be the aim for us. We’ve still got six weeks before the season starts and we’re actively looking.”
Source : www.indo11.com

sila cha said...


Mignolet delighted to take ´big step´ with Liverpool
Agen Bola www.indo11.com reported, Simon Mignolet says he is relishing the challenge of taking a “big step forward” in his career with Liverpool.
The Belgian, who was the subject of a £10 million switch from Sunderland in June, is expected to compete with Pepe Reina for the number one spot at Anfield next season.
But he is confident of improving at the Merseyside club, and helping Brendan Rodgers’ side make a long-awaited return to the UEFA Champions League.
“For me it’s a big step forward and I’m very pleased to be training with the team for two weeks now. I spoke to the manager and he told me that it’s going to be a big step forward,” he said.
“We play the first game on Saturday and after that, with the more we do on tour, I’ll see how big a step forward it is for me. At the moment, it’s only training and I have to get used to the players and the way of playing. Once we get going I’ll know what it’s going to be like.
“When I came in for the first couple of training sessions, I saw that everybody is very hungry and ambitious to get going, everybody wants to take a step forward and push on into the top four.
“There’s big ambition around the club. I also noticed that from the conversations I had with the goalkeeping coach and the gaffer. I saw that they are very ambitious, want to get forward, winning trophies and getting into the top four.”asreported byIndo Eleven.
Like Mignolet, Kolo Toure is among the four signings made by Rodgers since the opening of the transferwindow, having arrived on a free transfer from Manchester City on July 1.
Source : www.indo11.com

sila cha said...


Mignolet delighted to take ´big step´ with Liverpool
Agen Bola indo11.com reported, Simon Mignolet says he is relishing the challenge of taking a “big step forward” in his career with Liverpool.
The Belgian, who was the subject of a £10 million switch from Sunderland in June, is expected to compete with Pepe Reina for the number one spot at Anfield next season.
But he is confident of improving at the Merseyside club, and helping Brendan Rodgers’ side make a long-awaited return to the UEFA Champions League.
“For me it’s a big step forward and I’m very pleased to be training with the team for two weeks now. I spoke to the manager and he told me that it’s going to be a big step forward,” he said.
“We play the first game on Saturday and after that, with the more we do on tour, I’ll see how big a step forward it is for me. At the moment, it’s only training and I have to get used to the players and the way of playing. Once we get going I’ll know what it’s going to be like.
“When I came in for the first couple of training sessions, I saw that everybody is very hungry and ambitious to get going, everybody wants to take a step forward and push on into the top four.
“There’s big ambition around the club. I also noticed that from the conversations I had with the goalkeeping coach and the gaffer. I saw that they are very ambitious, want to get forward, winning trophies and getting into the top four.”asreported byIndo Eleven.
Like Mignolet, Kolo Toure is among the four signings made by Rodgers since the opening of the transferwindow, having arrived on a free transfer from Manchester City on July 1.
Source : www.indo11.com

The Riana said...

Pra musim buruk, Mazzarri tetap yakin sukses

Agen Bola indo11.com melaporkan dari -Pelatih Inter MIlan, Walter Mazzarri optimis bakal meraih kesuksesan pada musim depan. Itu ia ungkapkan jelang laga menghadapi Valencia di laga persahabatan pramusim.

Sebelumnya Inter Milan meraih hasil buruk dilaga pramusim saat dihajar Chelsea dengan skor 0-2 di laga Guinness International Cup. Kendati demikian, hasil buruk tersebut tak membuat pelatih berusia 51 tahun itu pesimis.

Mazzarri mengakui usai laga tersebut ia sempat mengadakan evaluasi dengan para pasukannya. Allenatore asal Italia itu ingin Javier Zanetti dkk mampu mengambil pelajaran dari kekalahan tersebut demi meningkatkan performa Inter pada musim depan.

"Saya telah mengadakan pertemuan dengan para pemain untuk menunjukkan kepada mereka bahwa terlepas dari beberapa kesalahan yang kami buat dan harus mencoba untuk tidak mengulanginya lagi," ungkap Mazzarri

"Tak hanya itu ia berharap hasil tersebut tak mempengaruhi mental pasukannya jelang digulirnya musim 2013-2014. Para pemain layak mendapatkan pujian dengan apa yang mereka lakukan sekarang, Sementara untuk pelatih ini merupakan hal yang hebat untuk disaksikan," pungkasnya.


Source : www.indo11.com

Andreas Ratih said...

Spurs Akan Jadikan Kekalahan atas Monaco sebagai Pelajaran

Agen Bola indo11.com melaporkan dari Monaco - Manajer Tottenham Hotspur Andre Villas-Boas mengatakan timnya kini harus bekerja lebih keras lagi menyusul kekalahan 2-5 yang mereka alami dari Monaco.
Melawat ke Stade Louis II dalam laga friendly pramusim, Spurs harus mengakui keunggulan klub Prancis yang sudah tampil amat agresif di bursa transfer musim panas tersebut.
Setelah tertinggal satu gol saja di paruh pertama, 'The Lily Whites' lantas memang bisa bikin dua gol di babak kedua. Namun, mereka juga kebobolan empat gol lain.
"Tentu saja kami sedikit kecewa. Babak pertama dimainkan di tempo lambat dan kedua tim sama-sama cuma punya satu peluang mencetak gol," aku Villas-Boas.
"Kami punya peluang lebih bagus di babak kedua, tapi masalahnya kami langsung kebobolan dua gol. Kami ingin menghindari hal itu karena para pemain meninggalkan ruang ganti dengan semangat bisa membalikkan keadaan dan menang."
"Kami sempat yakin kami bisa mendapatkan hasil lebih baik tapi kini kami akan bekerja keras untuk bisa lebih baik lagi sebelum musim dimulai. Kami tidak diperkuat beberapa pemain dan kami tahu kami lebih baik dari ini, tapi kami akan belajar dari hasil tersebut," lanjutnya menegaskan.
Source : www.indo11.com

Ratih Gema said...

Wenger Optimistis Arsenal Bisa Juara

Agen Bola indo11.com melaporkan dari London - Arsenal belum mendatangkan pemain top untuk musim kompetisi 2013/2014. Pun demikian, manajer The Gunners Arsene Wenger tetap yakin timnya bisa bersaing merebut gelar juara liga.
Sejauh ini, Arsenal baru mendapatkan penyerang Prancis Yaya Sanogo yang diboyong dari Auxerre dengan status gratis. Sekarang klub London Utara ini sedang berupaya menggaet bomber Liverpool Luis Suarez.
Akan tetapi, perburuan Arsenal belum berhasil. Dua tawaran mereka ditolak dan Liverpool masih keukeuh tidak akan melepas pemain yang musim lalu mengemas 30 gol itu. Meskipun demikian, Arsenal belum menyerah.
Arsenal sudah delapan tahun puasa gelar juara. Dengan skuatnya sekarang, Wenger tidak meragukan kans timnya di musim depan.
"Ya, tentu saja saya percaya diri," seru manajer asal Prancis itu setelah hasil imbang melawan Napoli.
"Mengapa saya duduk di sini dan mengatakan kepada Anda bahwa kami tidak bisa memenangi titel juara dengan para pemain yang kami punya?."
Arsenal masih akan melakoni dua pertandingan pramusim melawan Galatasaray di Emirates Cup (4/8) dan Manchester City (10/8) sebelum membuka kiprah di Premier League dengan menjamu Aston Villa sepekan berikutnya.
Source : www.indo11.com

som phors said...


Thiago Disebut Sepakat dengan MU, Isco Dikabarkan Condong ke City
Agen Bola indo11.com melaporkan berita, Manchester - Dua pemain pilar tim yunior Spanyol yang baru menjuarai Piala Eropa U-21, Thiago Alcantara dan Isco, diwartakan menuju dua klub besar kota Manchester.

Thiago, yang mencetak trigol ke gawang Italia di final Piala Eropa U-21 lalu, belakangan santer dikaitkan dengan Manchester United. Hal ini tak lepas dari belum banyaknya kans tampil Thiago di klubnya sekarang, Barcelona, kendatipun ia dinilai sebagai salah satu pemain muda berbakat Spanyol.seperti dikutip dari Indo Eleven

Pada prosesnya, surat kabar Inggris Daily Mail melaporkan bahwa Thigo kini sudah menyetujui kesepakatan pribadi dengan 'Setan Merah'. Namun, MU turut disebut harus terlebih dulu mencapai kata sepakat dengan Barca untuk bisa merekrut pemain 22 tahun itu.

Beredar kabar bahwa MU harus menggelontorkan uang sekitar 17 juta poundsterling (sekitar Rp 261 miliar) untuk Thiago. Pemain itu sendiri konon akan mendapatkan gaji sekitar 5 juta poundsterling (sekitar Rp 77 miliar) per tahun di Old Trafford.
Sumber : www.indo11.com

bon tong said...

Tur ke Afsel, City Pertama Kali Dipimpin Pellegrini
Agen Bola indo11.com melaporkan berita, Manchester - Manchester City akan menggelar tur ke Afrika Selatan pada bulan Juli mendatang. Laga melawan Supersport United akan menjadi laga pertama The Citizens di bawah asuhan manajer baru Manuel Pellegrini.

City dijadwalkan berhadapan dengan Supersport pada tanggal 14 Juli di Pretoria. Inilah kali pertama Pellegrini memimpin City dalam sebuah laga sejak ditunjuk sebagai suksesor Roberto Mancini.

Empat hari setelah melawan Supersport, City akan ditantang AmaZulu FC. Laga kedua di Afrika Selatan ini akan digelar di Kota Durban.

"Selain bertanding dua kali, kami juga sudah memilih Durban sebagai tempat untuk pemusatan latihan kami," jelas CEO City, Ferran Soriano, seperti dikutip dari Indo Eleven

"Ini adalah waktu yang menyenangkan untuk klub karena Manuel Pellegrini untuk pertama kalinya memimpin tim di sebuah laga," katanya.
Sumber : www.indo11.com