Monday, February 02, 2009

UM Panties Remain Bunched, Cause Strange Justifications

We found it interesting that the write-ups from several prominent and respected (usually, even by us) Michigan sites were so up-in-arms over the incident in Mackey Arena on Saturday. The incident, which you know unless you accidentally navigated in here while doing a Google search on Boiled Crawfish or something (and if so, welcome), was the one in which Manny Harris of Michigan put his elbow into Chris Kramer's nose and was then ejected from the game.

First, let's take a look at some of the foot-stomping going on out there in the 'sphere:

From the UM Rivals board:

Watch the clip and tell me: did Manny even make contact with Kramer's face? I don't think he did. I think Kramer flopped and broke his nose when he fell on the floor.

Yes, I'm sure that's what happened. Kramer's face never hit the floor. Come on. Look at it frame by frame.

From Maize n Brew:

"Unfortunately, Purdue's Kramer was checking Harris from approximately 1 inch away with his face very closely. So when Harris swung through, his elbow caught Kramer in the nose (who quickly went to the floor) and what transpired next could only be aptly described as a sham of officiating."

Who "quickly went to the floor"? Is this implying Kramer was acting? He actually lost consciousness. So yeah, what a flopper. Let's move along.

MnB then goes on to quote from the rule book, as do other sites, but they of course pull the parts that support their boy.

Do you really want to use the rulebook? Because so can we. Many of the UM sites are saying sure he deserved a flagrant, but since he didn't MEAN to hurt Kramer, he shouldn't have been ejected. Unfortunately, just like not knowing how fast you're going isn't an excuse to get out of a speeding ticket, not "meaning" to hurt someone is no reason not to be penalized. Let me share a subsection of Rule 10, Article 13 with you:

Rule 10, Article 13, sub e, sub-sub 2: Two free throws [are awarded] for an intentional personal or flagrant personal foul and the ball awarded at a designated spot nearest to where the foul occurred.

Any flagrant personal foul shall result in ejection of the offender.

Read that last line again. Not to pick on anyone in particular, but Michigan Sports Center makes the case like this:

This was a ridiculous call simply because Harris didn't intentionally hit Kramer. I can't stress that enough. It was an accident.

Once it was determined that it was a flagrant personal foul, Manny was done. It's not debatable. And it doesn't matter if he really is a nice guy and didn't mean to do it. He did it and so he's guilty.

What's really disappointing was the normally level-headed MGoBlog's take, which was this:

"It's one thing to lose. It's another thing to lose partially, largely, or entirely because of the incompetence of a referee.... [It was] a foul and was adjudged one until such point as Scrappy Heady IQ Head For The Scrappy Eckstein started gushing blood out of his nose and the Purdue crowd cried out, at which point it was cause to boot Manny Harris. From there Michigan imploded."

A few things... one, we're not arguing that the Big Ten officials are awful and incompetent and stealing money from the NCAA. They miss calls both ways. But these digs at Kramer as though he embelleshed this are just ridiculous. He didn't "gush blood" for effect. And it wasn't the crowd being angry that got Manny booted -- it was a couple of other things...

As already detailed, no matter how sweet a guy Manny Harris is, it was a flagrant foul. And a flagrant foul -- especially one causing injury -- is cause for ejection. Even if Manny teaches disabled children how to walk again and has singing voice that makes doves appear. It's irrelevant.

And, yes, Zack Novak's blatant elbow in the previous game against OSU does affect things. Sorry, boys, but your team is being looked at more closely now. You have guys throwing elbows and getting suspended and so when another elbow happens in the very next game you simply cannot act outraged that people begin to ask questions.

One of the other popular things today is to take rips at Jay Bilas' comments on ESPN that night. He said Belein has to "get his team under control." And this is true. Whether or not you think Manny's elbow was intentional, it's now a pattern. And who is responsible? The coach. None of us here think he's coaching them to elbow guys. But both incidents occurred when his players were very frustrated -- one in a blowout loss (Novak) and the other when their leading scorer was getting worked by Kramer.

And what about the other comments made by guys more respected that Bilas? How about Bob Knight pointing out that if the defender gets up on you, that's his space. You do not have the right to swing your elbows into his nose. That is a flagrant offensive foul.

Michigan fans have every right to be bothered by this situation. But to toss the rulebook around and act as though it's silly to eject a guy who drew blood by committing a textbook flagrant foul -- especially in light of recent elbowing fouls on the same team -- is just being a little bit short-sighted. We thought maybe everybody just needed to calm down after a disappointing loss and would then come to their senses. Guess not, though.

What enraged most of the Mackey crowd more than the play, though, was that after the decision was made, Belien's repeated physical turning around of the official to continue arguing with him. Matt Painter gets a technical foul at the end of the first half because he argued with the officials over a non-call when Robbie Hummel gets mugged, yet John Belein can assault the referees at his leisure and until he's done with his dissertation. We were there and, trust me, that's what almost caused the riot.

When Kramer got the elbow to the face, we didn't actually think Manny should be ejected. We were actually pissed at the officials at that point. As Boilerdowd said to me, "You have two teams that play pressure defense in each other's faces and you call a total of ten team fouls in the first half. This is what happens."

Was this like someone stepping on another player's head or like Zack Novak's elbow in the previous game? Absolutely, unequivocally, not.

Was it a flagrant foul that the rulebook says you get ejected for?

Yes, it was.

27 comments:

T-Mill said...

Excellent analysis of this. Makes me wish I had gone to the game. The thing MGoBlog forgot to mention is that Michigan was actually playing well without Harris being a major factor. His ejection should have made them instantly surrender.

When you lose by 20 one player does not make a difference, especially when he had five points and played half the damn game.

Anonymous said...

Well said J; I think Michigan fans are thinking their team got penalized Saturday because of Novak in their previous game, but Krabbenhoft's cheap shot elbow from last Tuesday was probably more of a factor in why Harris wildly swinging his elbows high warranted the flagrant foul...the CORRECT call by the way.

I don't think Manny Harris intended to hurt anyone and hope he isn't suspended. Only a DUMBASS HOMER would feel that way. Speaking of dumbass homers, I will say this about Michigan fans: Jay Bilas, Clark Kellogg and Bob Knight have forgotten more basketball than all Michigan fans will ever know.

Purdue Matt said...

Good post. I've lost a lot of respect for Michigan fans in the last week.

Swinging your elbows high like that is not a basketball play. Harris was frustrated by Kramer's D.

I also think its funny how Michigan fans think they stood a chance WITH Harris. It wouldn't have made a difference.

Boilergal said...

Does UM offer mind-reading as a major? Perhaps they should and every referee should be required to go through the program so that they can start ruling based on intent. I suppose that charges should no longer be called, because the offensive player didn't mean to knock the defender over...

John M said...

None of the Michigan bloggers you quote are conceding that it was a flagrant foul. They are conceding that it was a foul. In other words, they disagree that the the act was either intentional, excessive, or severe. It's understandable that you would disagree with them. But that's the appropriate question and they are relying on the appropriate part of the rulebook. The contact between Harris's elbow and Kramer's nose did not mandate ejection. Ejection was required once the officials determined it was a flagrant foul. But it's the flagrant foul determination that the Michigan bloggers are disputing, not the mandatory ejection.

I understand some message board posters may be making that argument. But it seems odd to refute Michigan Sports Center, for instance, based on a concession that he didn't make.

Purdue Matt said...

Maize N Brew says:

"Naturally Kramer returned to the game a short while later, mask in tow, and proceeded to play as though nothing had happened whatsoever..."

They don't understand what toughness looks like. Perhaps its because they watched too much Wolverine football last fall.

Purdue Matt said...

Swinging your elbows so high and so violently that it results in a broken nose IS a flagrant foul. No question about it.

boilerdowd said...

Zing!!


Clearly, the engineers at Purdue have rigged some artificial-bleeding machine for situations just like this...Worked like a charm!

Boiler_Ditsor said...

I've been a lot of other Big Ten Boards today, and almost all seem to have a certain level of hate for Chris Kramer. Multiple sites called Kramer a "tool" and quite a few referenced Kramer as the best actor in the conference.

I guess I can understand why this feeling is mutual througout the conference. When a widely undesired high shcool recruit is recruited by an opposing team and turns into the biggest defensive weapon in the nation - a kid who prides himself in defense - someone who frustrates, gets in the head of, and shuts down your best players - and could really care less if he scores as long as his team wins....I might be a little upset too. I would hate someone with so much toughness, grit, heart, and passion. A true team player to the core.

Chris Kramer is an amazing basketball player, and if all of the other fan bases can't respect him for how good of a player he is, then they can shove their dumb intellect right up their a**.

Anonymous said...

I agree with J Money's take on this completely but, just to be fair, it should be noted that Maize n Brew was not calling Harris' move a boxout.

Combining their headline with the first words of their post, they are asking: "What's next? An ejection for a solid boxout?"

Just wanted to clear that up. Go Boilers.

J Money said...

Anon -- my bad, I must have read that wrong. Will correct it.

Dylan Burkhardt said...

OK... I'm just going to try once but the issue is not that a flagrant foul leads to an ejection. The issue is that it wasn't a "textbook flagrant foul".

Manny was transferring the ball to the other side of his body and squaring up. That is a typical basketball move, there was no malicious intent and if Kramer didn't bleed everywhere there never would have been a flagrant called. Maybe Jim Burr let Beilein "abuse" him because he knew it was a BS call.

Anonymous said...

Great write up, they were going over the play again today on ESPNU and they stressed that the Big 10 refs were already on edge because of upper level big 10 officials making sure that anything close was to be called in reaction to the LewJack pick and the Novak elbow. Watching the play over and again Kramer was caught on the crown of the nose, fell backward on the back of his head clearly knocking him out and then rolled over. He didnt fall on his face breaking his nose/smacking his face into the floor. The elbow is what caused the blood no way around that. Even if he wasnt bleeding he was out cold, he would have still be laying there unconscious even without the blood thats not clean contact whether it was intentional or not.

Anonymous said...

Hey Purdue Matt, your coach and Kramer disagree with you:

"I thought it was just a basketball play," Painter said. "I thought he was just triple threatening and trying to establish his space."

"I was trying to deny the ball, (and) he just got me square," Kramer said. "I blacked out and fell down. I woke up to a pool of blood on the floor. I'm pretty sure my nose is broken. I wouldn't say it was a dirty play. It was just one of those things where everybody tries to clear space. Everybody does it."

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20090131%2FSPORTS0201%2F901310417%2F1131%2Frss17

Anonymous said...

WAHHH WAHHH WAHHH!!! Geez, Michigan fans- you were NOT going to win that game anyway!!! You have lost 5 of the last 6, get over yourselves and blaming your loss on that call!! Tell your team to grow a pair and show a little toughness!!! Good thing Kramer kept slamming his nose into the court to draw blood- HA you guys are a joke! Go watch some football...

Jenna said...

Andy Katz's article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3879092&name=katz_andy

It basically expands on what MattyT was saying..

Captain MaƱana said...

It is a flagrant foul because you CANNOT swing your elbows back-and forth above your shoulders, whether you make contact or not - CASE CLOSED!!

Good God, what a bunch of IDIOTS! LEARN THE RULES YOU STUPID MICHIGAN FANS, or stick to hockey, something you might just know about... maybe.

Anonymous said...

As a Michigan fan, I'm alright with the call for the flagrant. I'm not happy with it, but no one generally ever is.

I will say that Bilas is an idiot when it comes to this. To call that "not a basketball move" was ridiculously wrong. The elbows weren't above the shoulders. He squared up. Kramer was playing tough D and it was an unfortunate occurrence. That is all.

Also, it's not a pattern unless it happens three times. Twice is a coincidence. And with Harris's foul, I don't think even you can classify it in the same category as Novak's.

To defend some of the idiots on the message boards, some of the Michigan fans want to know why Alex Legion wasn't ejected for giving Novak 6 stiches in a game on a worse looking play? Just a thought.

Lastly, Kramer plays tough D. That's why people don't like him generally. Its like fans of David Eckstein. Opposing fan bases generally hate the guy because the MSM overplays the "gritty, hardworking, son-of-a-coach tenacity" to a point its sickening. The guy is good; he works hard. Good for him. I'm sure if Novak would have played, you'd heard a similar story and thought he was a total tool because generally speaking, gritty==over-hyped suck. Again, just generally.

Good luck to you guys the rest of the season.

Unknown said...

Not a flagrant foul, boiler fans - quit being such sore winners. You're lucky the refs let your team win by ejecting the best player in the league.

Anonymous said...

Hello from East Lansing. I never thought I would see the day when MSU fans would think UM got a raw deal, but that is precisely what has happened. I think people around here actually think Kramer should have been called for a foul and got exactly what he deserved. I would like to see how these fans would react if it were their own player in that pool of blood at Breslin/Crisler as a result of a swinging elbow. I am sure they would feel a flagrant foul wasn't appropriate. Give me a break. There are rules for a reason. Wake up.

Daniel Altman said...

I'm a pretty big Purdue fan (I wear my Glenn Robinson jersey for most games. Yes, it drives my girlfriend crazy), but I don't see the Manny play as a flagrant foul. Honestly, I think its a borderline offensive foul. I just don't see any malicious intent.

FWIW, I just re-started an old site of mine and I've been writing a bit about this team. You can find it at http://daltman.blogspot.com.

Purdue Matt said...

The Eckstein analogy doesn't work because Eckstein sucks.

Purdue Matt said...

MgoBlog is now saying that Kramer shouldn't have been playing in the second half. They try to make it sound like the coaches forced him to play against his will. They just don't get it.

http://mgoblog.com/diaries/why-was-kramer-playing

Kramer has the kind of toughness and unselfish attitude that they'll never see from anyone in Maize and Blue.

boilerdowd said...

formerlyanonymous, thanks for being the voice of reason. I'm glad you stopped in, you're helping my view of UM fans...right now, it's not good.

Daniel, intent does not matter because you simply can't judge intent. I firmly believe Harris wasn't being malicious, but I also believe he wanted to make sure Kramer gave him some space...what creates more space than a lil' elbow?

It's flagrant...the only reasons the refs got it right is because they got to see it on tape. BT officials aren't capable of making quick, correct judgement calls.

Check that, Valentine, Hillary & Burr aren't capable of it.

Anonymous said...

Might I suggest never EVER reading anything on mgoblog not by Brian. The MGoIdiots are worthless. I'm not saying Brian doesn't display homerism, I believe that's part of his charm within the fanbase. The MGoIdiots on the board, however, should be dragged out behind the barn in many cases.

Anonymous said...

Great post, guys. If you hadn't mentioned Bob Knight's comments, I was going to. He's absolutely right, as was Jay Bilas, and the officials, and everyone else who's not a UM fan. Big Ten officials have proven time and time again that they are terrible, however in this case and in Novak's case against Ohio State, they did the right thing. Sorry they're making an example of your team, Michigan fans, but the shoe seems to fit here.

J Money said...

I am particularly amused by Timothy's comment up above that the refs "allowed" Purdue to win the game by throwing out the "best player in the league."

Yes, Manny was really lighting things up.

Reality check -- Purdue had two guys with the flu, one with a concussion, one with a back making him walk like your Aunt Millie and one with a broken face....basically they were playing with three healthy guys. And they still blasted the Wolverines.

We'd love to see a matchup where both teams have everyone available and healthy. Maybe we'd win by 30 instead of 18.